I would be great to have yet another HolyGrail modus that allows full nights, e.g. BOTH sunset and sunrise.
The current options only cover one of them, but most of what I want to do is full night timelapses, so I am unsure how the algorithm would deal with this.
I have not yet tried this with unleashed, but will do so tonight and will report back what this does in the morning.
However, even if it does work, it would be great to make that clear in the menu. The current options seem to say one can only do sunset OR sunrise, no both.
Edit, it does not work, because the holy grail timelapse only takes one photo, but never any consecutive one (the normal timelapse does). I will submit a bug report for this.
Thanks
Holy Grail 24h needs a combined algorithm of sunset and sunrise.
We do already have a combined one, it's called "EV-Smoothing 24h". But unfortunately it's not available on all cameras. The camera needs to provide the Unelashed with EV-Meter value, and the algorithm will use that, smooth it with a rolling average (to avoid flickering), and adjust the settings whenever the rolling average passes the -0.3 EV or the +0.3 EV mark.
Unfortunately, the LRT Algorithms have no correlation with EV values, so they have to be limited to one direction to work at all (or the adjustment would constantly be flipping from -0.3 to +0.3 EV alternating virtually on every photo. However, we do have a plan to add a smart detection, for example if no adjustment was made by the algorithm for a few hours, that we'd switch from sunset to sunrise. There are still some edge cases where this might not work as expected. One example would be clouds brightening the scene of a night sky and kicking the Unleashed into a sunrise algorithm, resulting in underexposed images until the actual sunrise starts.
Unfortunately, the LRT Algorithms have no correlation with EV values, so they have to be limited to one direction to work at all (or the adjustment would constantly be flipping from -0.3 to +0.3 EV alternating virtually on every photo. However, we do have a plan to add a smart detection, for example if no adjustment was made by the algorithm for a few hours, that we'd switch from sunset to sunrise. There are still some edge cases where this might not work as expected. One example would be clouds brightening the scene of a night sky and kicking the Unleashed into a sunrise algorithm, resulting in underexposed images until the actual sunrise starts.
Founder & CEO of Foolography, Hardware & Firmware developer.
Hi,
To begin easy, not need all to bé automatic.
Just need thé possibility to change manually the
Algorithm direction while shooting timelapse.
For instance after sunset and before moonrise.
Now with my Sony caméras, I can not change anything, even thé adjust button becomes unavailable if thé phone sleep a bit and wake up after !
A really good Holly grail requires a bit manual control sometimes.
With qdslrdashboard we could do it, so hope will bé same with unleashed.
To begin easy, not need all to bé automatic.
Just need thé possibility to change manually the
Algorithm direction while shooting timelapse.
For instance after sunset and before moonrise.
Now with my Sony caméras, I can not change anything, even thé adjust button becomes unavailable if thé phone sleep a bit and wake up after !
A really good Holly grail requires a bit manual control sometimes.
With qdslrdashboard we could do it, so hope will bé same with unleashed.
Have you updated your app?
Could you let me know which app and firmware versions you're on?
The "Adjustment" value should definitely be available - if you'd change any other value, the Unleashed would immediately try to revert those changes ;-) But the Adjustment value is designed for the exact purpose of adjusting the Algorithms without causing problems.
Could you let me know which app and firmware versions you're on?
The "Adjustment" value should definitely be available - if you'd change any other value, the Unleashed would immediately try to revert those changes ;-) But the Adjustment value is designed for the exact purpose of adjusting the Algorithms without causing problems.
Founder & CEO of Foolography, Hardware & Firmware developer.
There's a second, maybe easier, option.
In general, you don't need to fix the 'direction' that the adjustments go, as long as you keep them smooth. Even within a timeframe where it gets darker, the camera should adjust if intermittedly it gets brighter. Indeed, you don;t want to do that from image to image, but if, say, 5 or 10 consecutive images would need it brighter without interruption, you could flip the algorithm. Once it continues to get darker, it will flip again after 5/10 images. Yes, that might introduce SOME amount of flickering, but we need to remove this in post anyway. And as long as the balance is ok, i.e. the number of consecutive image is well adjusted, I don't think it would be too bad.
I don't think you need to wait for several hours without adjustment.
And yes, I have a Sony camera, so this is currently not possible for me (have not tried the newest firmware).
In general, you don't need to fix the 'direction' that the adjustments go, as long as you keep them smooth. Even within a timeframe where it gets darker, the camera should adjust if intermittedly it gets brighter. Indeed, you don;t want to do that from image to image, but if, say, 5 or 10 consecutive images would need it brighter without interruption, you could flip the algorithm. Once it continues to get darker, it will flip again after 5/10 images. Yes, that might introduce SOME amount of flickering, but we need to remove this in post anyway. And as long as the balance is ok, i.e. the number of consecutive image is well adjusted, I don't think it would be too bad.
I don't think you need to wait for several hours without adjustment.
And yes, I have a Sony camera, so this is currently not possible for me (have not tried the newest firmware).
Hi Boris,
our EV Smoothing Algorithm does exactly what you're describing - it allows the scene getting brighter and darker as often as you want, and doesn't need to "Flip" the Algorithm. This works, because it's based on EV values.
The problem with the LRT Algorithms is that they're based on a calculated value from the histogram, which unfortunately has no relation to EV values, and will vary immensely between different scenes.
The way it works is that this single "brightness" value is calculated from the first image, and stored as a reference. the Unleashed then calculates the same value for all subsequent images and compares it to the reference. whenever the value deviates by more than 10% from the reference. value, the Unleashed changes a camera setting by 0.3 EV. The problem is that a change of 0.3 EV is guaranteed to take it below the 10% threshold again, but in some scenes, it could be that a change of 0.3EV results in a change of just 1% of the calculated brightness value, and in other scenes, it might be as much as 30%! with either case, allowing changes in both directions is a moot point:
- in the 1% case, this means the direction would only ever flip after a change of around 6 EV, (20% = 20x 1% = 20x 0.3EV = 6EV)
- in the 30%, we'd be flip-flopping +0.3 EV then -0.3EV on every alternating image. as every adjustment by 0.3EV would take it under the -10% threshold then over the +10% threshold again. Limiting it in a single direction removes this problem. The worst that happens in the single direction is that the point of adjustment might be just a little offset from the ideal, but at least remains consistent over the entire timelapse.
We didn't invent this Algorithm - as the name suggests, it's the "LR Timelapse" Algorithm, by Gunther Wegner.
our EV Smoothing Algorithm does exactly what you're describing - it allows the scene getting brighter and darker as often as you want, and doesn't need to "Flip" the Algorithm. This works, because it's based on EV values.
The problem with the LRT Algorithms is that they're based on a calculated value from the histogram, which unfortunately has no relation to EV values, and will vary immensely between different scenes.
The way it works is that this single "brightness" value is calculated from the first image, and stored as a reference. the Unleashed then calculates the same value for all subsequent images and compares it to the reference. whenever the value deviates by more than 10% from the reference. value, the Unleashed changes a camera setting by 0.3 EV. The problem is that a change of 0.3 EV is guaranteed to take it below the 10% threshold again, but in some scenes, it could be that a change of 0.3EV results in a change of just 1% of the calculated brightness value, and in other scenes, it might be as much as 30%! with either case, allowing changes in both directions is a moot point:
- in the 1% case, this means the direction would only ever flip after a change of around 6 EV, (20% = 20x 1% = 20x 0.3EV = 6EV)
- in the 30%, we'd be flip-flopping +0.3 EV then -0.3EV on every alternating image. as every adjustment by 0.3EV would take it under the -10% threshold then over the +10% threshold again. Limiting it in a single direction removes this problem. The worst that happens in the single direction is that the point of adjustment might be just a little offset from the ideal, but at least remains consistent over the entire timelapse.
We didn't invent this Algorithm - as the name suggests, it's the "LR Timelapse" Algorithm, by Gunther Wegner.
Founder & CEO of Foolography, Hardware & Firmware developer.
Is there a estimated timeline for the implementation of this new way to 'flip' the algorithm automatically?
The 24h algorithm is not available on my cameras (Sony A7III and A7RV), so I can currently only go one direction. As I mostly need both, I am not yet using the unleashed.
Even being able to change the direction of the algorithm without interrupting the timelapse might be a intermediate solution. Just in case that's easier to implement.
The 24h algorithm is not available on my cameras (Sony A7III and A7RV), so I can currently only go one direction. As I mostly need both, I am not yet using the unleashed.
Even being able to change the direction of the algorithm without interrupting the timelapse might be a intermediate solution. Just in case that's easier to implement.
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vikaschander
- Posts: 1
- Joined: November 30th, 2023, 7:38 am
hello,
even i am waiting for the solution for a 24 hour holy grail solution which lets me shoot from sunset to sunrise. thanks .vikas chander
even i am waiting for the solution for a 24 hour holy grail solution which lets me shoot from sunset to sunrise. thanks .vikas chander
Hi,
it's on our to-do list, but not yet near the top, so I can not give you an estimate a the moment.
What I personally do when I need to make such a change, is that I watch the interval clock for a while and keep count in my head for two or three intervals, then stop the currently running Holy grail timelapse right after a shot is triggered, keep counting in my head, while making the changes in the app, then hit start again when I have reached the interval time in my head. That ensures a continuous interval, but allows you to make a change.
stopping a timelapse/holy grail timelapse will not stop the current shot, so you can hit stop immediately after the camera has started the shot.
lets say you have an interval set to 10s -> you should have 8-9 seconds to change the Algorithm from LRT Sunset to LRT Sunrise, and hit start again...
I'll be honest: I have not done this often for switching from Sunset to Sunrise, but have switched from Sunset algorithm to a regular timelapse once I could see the Milky Way, as I did not want any more exposure changes to happen during the darkest part of the night, when the Milky Way was nicely visible... A moon-lit cloud passing by would have caused the Algorithm to start making unwanted changes.
Maybe that helps!
it's on our to-do list, but not yet near the top, so I can not give you an estimate a the moment.
What I personally do when I need to make such a change, is that I watch the interval clock for a while and keep count in my head for two or three intervals, then stop the currently running Holy grail timelapse right after a shot is triggered, keep counting in my head, while making the changes in the app, then hit start again when I have reached the interval time in my head. That ensures a continuous interval, but allows you to make a change.
stopping a timelapse/holy grail timelapse will not stop the current shot, so you can hit stop immediately after the camera has started the shot.
lets say you have an interval set to 10s -> you should have 8-9 seconds to change the Algorithm from LRT Sunset to LRT Sunrise, and hit start again...
I'll be honest: I have not done this often for switching from Sunset to Sunrise, but have switched from Sunset algorithm to a regular timelapse once I could see the Milky Way, as I did not want any more exposure changes to happen during the darkest part of the night, when the Milky Way was nicely visible... A moon-lit cloud passing by would have caused the Algorithm to start making unwanted changes.
Maybe that helps!
Founder & CEO of Foolography, Hardware & Firmware developer.
Hello!
I would also love a 24h LR Timelapse algorithm feature (as I can't use the EV algorithm on my Fujifilm X-T4).
Another idea - which may be more simple to implement - is to set a certain time of the day for the change to sunrise algorithm, and another time of the day for the change to sunset algorithm. This could be done by the user in the Unleashed app, depending on location and time of the year. For example, for Germany today, I could set the change to sunrise algorithm to about 4am, and the change to sunset algorithm to about 4pm. The Unleashed then simply needs to compare the current time against the times set for sunrise and sunset algorithm and choose the algorithm accordingly.
It would be great if this way we could take 24h holy grail timelapses quite soon. I like the other ideas discussed in this thread, too, but I'd understand if those algorithms would take more time to be implemented, so maybe my idea would be good at least in the meantime.
I would also love a 24h LR Timelapse algorithm feature (as I can't use the EV algorithm on my Fujifilm X-T4).
Another idea - which may be more simple to implement - is to set a certain time of the day for the change to sunrise algorithm, and another time of the day for the change to sunset algorithm. This could be done by the user in the Unleashed app, depending on location and time of the year. For example, for Germany today, I could set the change to sunrise algorithm to about 4am, and the change to sunset algorithm to about 4pm. The Unleashed then simply needs to compare the current time against the times set for sunrise and sunset algorithm and choose the algorithm accordingly.
It would be great if this way we could take 24h holy grail timelapses quite soon. I like the other ideas discussed in this thread, too, but I'd understand if those algorithms would take more time to be implemented, so maybe my idea would be good at least in the meantime.